Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

From: Darrell Eifert <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:02:31 -0500

Actually, I meant 'free' in both senses, but mostly in the sense of 
'free of charge'.  I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to 
say that Ubuntu, Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of 
Linux itself would never exist or have gained traction and a developer 
base if these products were not freely available.  Groovix and Userful 
are selling proprietary public-use computer management packages at a 
higher cost than their XP equivalents.  If an open source LTSP solution 
were available under Linux (as in the Edubuntu package for schools) I 
would be much happier about recommending Linux as a solution for 
public-use computers in small to medium-sized independent public 
libraries.  

Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this project 
to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from Fortres -- 
that's what I want in an LTSP package.  (As an analogy, remember that 
Koha was once just an idea floating around in some idealistic New 
Zealander's head.)

http://www.fortresgrand.com/products/tlm/tlm.htm

Cheers,
-- Darrell

Erik Hetzner wrote:
> At Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:28:44 -0800,
> Karen Coyle <[email-masked]> wrote:
>   
>> Darrell Eifert wrote:
>>     
>>> There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty 
>>> much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
>>> ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.
>>>
>>>       
>> I have a hard time considering "free" (as in "not paying for") as 
>> ideological. If linux is a good desktop, the "freeness" is icing on the 
>> cake. (And it's only free as in the purchase price; you still pay in 
>> some way to maintain it.) If you need to purchase apps to make your 
>> library work as it should, then you should budget for that. I think we 
>> need to see "free" and "open source" as two different properties that 
>> MAY intersect but do not necessarily intersect.
>>
>> kc
>> (who prefers linux to windows, and is looking forward to being able to 
>> purchase my favorite apps for linux as they become available)
>>     
>
> I think that Darrell probably meant ‘free’ in the GNU sense:
>
> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>
>
> best, Erik
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ;; Erik Hetzner, California Digital Library
> ;; gnupg key id: 1024D/01DB07E3
>   

-- 
-------------------------------------
Darrell Eifert
Head of Adult Services
Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH

"Beware the man of only one book"
Old Latin proverb

---

From: Joe Hourcle <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:13:13 -0500

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Darrell Eifert wrote:

> Hi Folks --
>
> Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my 
> questions after posting a query to the "Linux in Libraries" group.

[trimmed]

> In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting 
> a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular 
> maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would Canonical (for example) 
> be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the 
> thousands who use library computers every day?  Would anyone on this list be 
> interested in spearheading such a project?  Is there a place to float such a 
> project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) 
> that would give them bragging rights on a resume?

Usually, it comes to down to a 'build it and they will come' type 
situation -- you see what you want, so you start it (either on your own, 
or with a team), and put it out there for people to use / comment on / add 
to / etc.

So, as you have the vision, I'd suggest you spearhead it yourself -- even 
if that doesn't mean programming, but trying to get some programmers 
interested in the project while you deal more with requirements analysis.

As for where to find programmers, I'd suggest you try selling the project 
on the oss4lib list:

 	http://www.oss4lib.org/mailing-list

(there's a fair bit of cross-over of membership between oss4lib and 
code4lib, but that's probably a closer fit to what you're trying to do)

-----
Joe Hourcle

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 08:48:40 -0800

hi Darrell,

thanks for your intriguing post.

a few of observations; 1) this is one instance of the use
of a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the
very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that
is, to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your
use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and
important case.

2) many open source programmers may not be familiar with
commercial software products (and may not want to be), so
you might have a better chance of getting an answer if you
do the groundwork of listing the features you are in search
of yourself, rather than asking the list to go learn them.

3) it seems that a good desktop linux distro would allow
an administrator or programmer to create a system (based on
the existing pieces you mention) that might consist of a
some shell scripts, perhaps a "lite" database, a web server,
and client- and server-side scripts to accomplish the
features that you list, and then provide hooks for that
system to be made into a distributable package (e.g. Ubuntu).

i wouldn't be surprised if your listing the desired features
explicitly might seed some capable programmers mind to suggest
(or even spend some time coding something up) which may help
you right away. or, it may just prompt someone to remember
that something _does_ already exist that answers your needs.
(i think Francis' LibPrint suggestion seems very helpful)

just keep in mind that the very nature of the linux system
is organic, and the workforce is distributed and lasseiz-faire.
it doesn't seem to be very agile in responding to monolithic
deficiencies (just look at how we ended up with the linux
kernel vs. hurd :).

/[email-masked]

On 12/30/08 12:37 PM, Darrell Eifert wrote:
> questions after posting a query to the "Linux in Libraries" group.  I 
> will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire 
> Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a 
> question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience.  Many 
> librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and 
> maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers.  Right now 
> however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a 
> reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP "Time Limit 
> Manager" from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep 
> Freeze.   There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that 
> pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
> All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system 
> seem to be out there.  Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central 
> server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if 
> necessary.  CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and 
> perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release 
> station.  A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing 
> random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder 
> permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent 
> users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.  Web content filtering 
> is available from several sources if necessary.  A browser-based central 
> server module might help to make the project "distro agnostic".
> 
> I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely 
> to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use 
> computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control 
> system was available.  In the world of commercial software, an 
> entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and 
> sells the product.  On that model we have the afore mentioned "Time 
> Limit Manager" for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly 
> recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC.
> In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about 
> getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution 
> (with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would 
> Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way 
> to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every 
> day?  Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a 
> project?  Is there a place to float such a project before a group of 
> up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them 
> bragging rights on a resume?
> 
> Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project 
> "how to") would be more than welcome ...
> 
> Cheers,
>

---

From: Erik Hetzner <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:08:39 -0800

At Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:02:31 -0500,
Darrell Eifert <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 'free of charge'.

Thanks for the clarification. In that case I have to agree with Karen.
Free (as in beer) software tends to be a property that results from
the principles of free (as in speech) software, but it is not an goal
in itself of most free/open source software developers.

> I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubuntu,
> Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of Linux itself
> would never exist or have gained traction and a developer base if
> these products were not freely available.

Probably - but they certainly never would have gained a developer base
if they were not free in the sense of having the source code
available, and allowing modifications. Freedom is more important to
community building than giving the software away without cost.

> Groovix and Userful are selling proprietary public-use computer
> management packages at a higher cost than their XP equivalents. If
> an open source LTSP solution were available under Linux (as in the
> Edubuntu package for schools) I would be much happier about
> recommending Linux as a solution for public-use computers in small
> to medium-sized independent public libraries.
>
> Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this
> project to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from
> Fortres -- that's what I want in an LTSP package. (As an analogy,
> remember that Koha was once just an idea floating around in some
> idealistic New Zealander's head.)
>

Groovix claims to be GPLed, though they do not make it easy to get the
software. Here is some info:

<http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller>

best, Erik

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:36:48 -0800

hi Darrell,

a few observations; 1) this is one instance of the use of
a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the
very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that
is; to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your
use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and
important case.

explicitly might seed some capable programmer's mind to suggest

/[email-masked]

---

From: Darrell Eifert <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:28:58 -0500

Hi Steve --

Thanks for the thoughtful and comprehensive reply.  I agree that 
'restriction' is usually not in the vocabulary of those who contribute 
their time and effort to providing open source solutions.  As someone
who provides computer services to the public however, my focus is on 
giving fair use of a limited number of workstations to a large number of 
people in accordance with usage polices set in place by our
Trustees.  Some type of ticket / reservation / security system is a 
necessity.

I'm very intrigued by the process you mention as your third point.  My 
wish list for the finished application would include:

1) a browser-based administration module that a) lists each available 
computer with status (in use / available), time remaining, and way to 
increase that time or send a log-off command or message, b) assigns the 
total number of computers to user-selected groups or pools -- for 
example, we provide 20-minute computers for visitors, 60-minute 
computers for patrons, and a 3 hour computer for genealogists in our
Local History room, c) a screen from which to generate passwords and 
print matching login tickets for each pool -- we print them on different 
colored paper --, d) full usage statistics for each computer by date 
range, e) an optional  printer-release module that will trap the print 
output from each workstation, give a page count to the administrator, 
and release the print job upon appropriate payment, and f) the ability 
to grab a screen shot from any computer in use in case the user is 
reported as in violation of our Internet usage policies.

The system would automatically delete passwords from the list as soon as 
that particular log-in session is completed.

2) a client module that a) allows us to list our computer / internet 
usage policies on the log-in screen, with an "I agree" button next to 
the field where a patron enters their password to begin a session, b) an 
on-screen timer with a 'logoff' button that counts down the remaining 
time, and c) security provisions that prevent users from changing the 
wallpaper, deleting screen icons, or adding / deleting programs.

I'd like the system to be flexible enough to work either in a 
thin-client environment, or with each computer running as full Linux 
workstation.  Although Debian / Ubuntu / Gnome is my current choice, 
the  system should ideally work under any distro and window manager.

Kyle Hall from the Crawford County Federated Library system has written 
a kiosk management system in php that covers many of these bases.  I'm 
currently in a discussion with him about how his system can be expanded 
to cover more of the things on my wish list --

http://kylehall.info/index.php/about/

Thanks as well to everyone on this list who has taken an interest in 
this discussion

Cheers,
-- Darrell

---

From: Benjamin Daeuber <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:55:06 -0600

> <http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller>

The time management they are using is GPL:

http://freshmeat.net/projects/pre-book/

It's actually from Userful.

---

From: Darrell Eifert <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:12:33 -0500

Hi Ben --

This is very close to what I've been searching for -- thanks for the 
link ...

Darrell Eifert
Lane Memorial Library